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| Mary Cummins, Andre Perry, Pam Perry, Christy Bunce, Jefferson Sherman, Property Valuation, Appraisal Bias, & Black Homeownership, Appraisal Institute, real estate appraiser, appraisal, real estate |
July 15, 2021 11:00 a.m. PST Over 500 people attended.
Topic: Property Valuation, Appraisal Bias, & Black Homeownership - Zoom meeting.
Description: The New American Dream & Freddie Mac webinar series continues to discuss the challenges to increase Black Homeownership and potential solutions.
What will you get out of this by attending? We will look at appraisals and property valuation and how to overcome potential bias in this arena. We have a powerful group of expert panelists to share insights and their organizations efforts to bridge the gap in Black Homeownership.
Moderator: Christy Bunce, Chief Operating Officer of New American Dream Funding (Bunce)
Panelist: Dr. Andre Perry, Brookings Institution (A Perry)
Panelist: Jefferson Sherman, MAI, AI-GRS Appraisal Institute (Sherman)
Panelist: Pamela Perry, Vice President, Single Family Equitable Housing, Freddie Mac (P Perry)
My comments in ( ). Here is the video.
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Zoom meeting notes by Mary Cummins, Los Angeles, California real estate appraiser.
Bunce: Our company supports lending for minorities and black people.
Sherman: Bias is human. No profession is immune.
A Perry: My research used the Zillow list price of homes and census data. I controlled for crime, education, walkability and there was still a difference in value (between primarily black verses white neighborhoods). The black owned homes were under priced by 23%. This loss of value is not about only appraisers but also lenders and agents. Appraisers have something to do with the loss of 23% (of value of black owned homes). There are biased appraisers media articles show. Structural bias is in the system even though most say there is no racism in appraising. (This article shows that Andre Perry's research is fatally statistically flawed as he committed every grave statistical error.)
P Perry: There are 3.4 million black Americans that qualify for a mortgage but have no mortgage. We must eradicate barriers to tens of millions of black people. We have a housing shortage. Black people live on land in areas which will be uninhabitable due to climate change. Fannie Mac recognizes there is an issue based on data from our appraisals.
Bunce: What research is Freddie Mac doing on valuation?
P Perry: A lot. There are appraisal gaps. We have a treasure trove of data on appraisal gaps. We did research sales price verses valuation. 2015 to 2020 data showed appraised value lower than contract price for minorities. (2015 to 2020 prices increased. Makes sense past sales would be lower than current contract prices) The appraisers opinion of value more likely to fall below contract price in black and hispanic areas. ("Hispanic" is a racist term. Most prefer Latino including myself) Black and hispanics receive lower values than whites regardless of where home is located. The findings are troubling. The gap is large but we are uncertain of the root cause. The average distance of the comp from the subject is shorter in hispanic, black areas than white areas. (Because less expensive homes are generally in more dense areas. The homes are generally smaller on smaller lots. I see this appraising homes in these areas. I don't have to search as wide to find enough comps)
A Perry: Value verses price. Value is socially constructed, a social construct. Humans determine value. Price is the contract price, what it sold for, a fact.
P Perry: "A few white folk move in (to a black area) and suddenly value spikes." (People are being priced out of more expensive areas and going to less expensive areas which tend to have more people of color. It's the revitalization stage of the real estate cycle which some call "gentrification." It's just affordability economics. This causes prices to increase in less expensive areas.)
Bunce: We as lenders see many appraisals and need to understand this.
Sherman: Value and price are different. Value is an economic concept, an opinion, subjective, not a science, not a fact. Price is fact, list price, contract price. There will be a difference in opinion of value among appraisers. Competent appraisers should reach about same conclusions.
A Perry: There is an intrinsic value of whiteness which we see when a white person stands in for black owner (in the appraisal inspection). This shows that appraiser sees higher home value if the home has a white owner. HUD, government should do tests for this effect.
Sherman: Let me explain the appraisal process and appraisers. Appraisers are asked to appraise for market value based on specific requirements. How do we improve black areas. Maybe there are other types of values that should be measured. A value that excludes the location could be applied to certain lending situations for disadvantaged neighborhoods. We (appraisers) do use value, investment value, terms you, Andre Perry, are not familiar with. If the government, legislation determines there are different types of value to measure, we'll do it. We are flexible. We appraisers are willing to participate in other value methods.
Bunce: Appraisals, appraising is not a science. If it were more science and less opinion, we can use data and science to remove bias.
A Perry: I met Sherman talking about AVMs on Capitol Hill. Software developers may also have bias besides lenders, appraisers. Credit score, education, crime matter but there is additional penalties to black areas. Black people have lower credit scores because they have less access to wealth. We were denied access to wealth. We have no (savings) so must take on debt. This leads to a lower credit score. (Credit scores are based on math. The lower the score, the less likely someone is able to pay back a loan. The less savings you have, the more likely you are to default on a loan. The credit score is to help the lender determine risk. Defaulting on a loan hurts the lender and the homeowner) My aim is to improve the community, not blame this or that group. (He has specifically blamed appraisers)
Bunce: There is no blame. We just must make all aware of the issues. Does the sales comparison approach carry forward past effects of historical redlining?
Sherman: The sales comparison approach is the most applicable to value. Buyers have choices. They compare one property to another to choose what to buy. Appraisers do the same. Recent sales transactions represent the best way to appraise property. Banning it would have negative dramatic effect on home values. It would fuel an asset bubble. Maybe one can add a value besides appraisal value for future value in revitalizing areas.
Other approaches of value. The cost approach. I'm an instructor. The cost to build a new house minus depreciation plus the value of land is the cost market value. We consider three types of depreciation, (1) physical. (2) Functional depreciation. An old style floor plan with one bedroom through another doesn't work today. (3) External depreciation, influences. Is the subject near a noxious use industrial area? The cost approach isn't the answer to your question. (Besides the fact that land value is based on location and sales market approach. It's generally determined by extraction method). The answer is markets have to change. How can we change the nature of neighborhoods. We need public and private partnerships and legislation. If we (as real estate appraisers) don't do our jobs correctly, people will get hurt. (Lenders and homeowners could lose money in foreclosures causing negative ripple effect on overall market, real estate market of the neighborhood and negative financial effect on minority families. 2008 bubble anyone?). Over all (improper home values) put family wealth at risk. There will be more foreclosures. The appraisal must be accurate for all to prosper. (The appraisal protects the lender and homeowner from loss)
Bunce: Freddie Mac has millions of appraisals. Freddie can investigate the appraisal gaps. What are you doing? (to P Perry)
P Perry: I agree. The appraised value is an opinion. The appraiser has discretion. How does this impact minority communities? We want more consistent valuations. Maybe we'll use some AVMs. We won't just tech our way out of it. Intrinsic racism is causing valuation issues.
Bunce: AVMs, automated valuation models. Hybrids can eliminate bias and discrimination? Thoughts?
Sherman: I echo Dr Perry. AVM is multiple regression model, algorithm analysis of sales. The software writer can be biased. We don't eliminate bias that way. Our appraiser members (of the Appraisal Institute) are the gold standard in the industry. Our members may use AVM as an additional tool. The real gold standard is a live appraiser who physically examines the property and subject market.
A Perry: We will call for the hybrid approach. If a property falls below market rate (contract price?) it should trigger another appraisal, an AVM. We must hold appraisers accountable. Appraisers must explain the lower rate. Appeals are hard to come by. 90% of appeals are denied. We need a backup when something goes wrong. If someone feels low-balled, get a white person to stand in for them. Is it individual bias or just a bad appraiser. Is it individual bias or a structural problem. It's a structural problem if you use the price comparison approach. It can be mitigated by using data.
Bunce: This is what New American Dream funding does (company plug). Other lenders should do the same. When we have appraisals that don't look right, the value is not coming in, it's way lower than sales price, we run an AVM to have that data to compare. That helps us talk to the appraiser. That is the fair and right thing to do. (It's also could be perceived as undo influence on an appraiser which could cause the lender to lose their license. The Dodd Frank Act was to help prevent undo influence over appraisers and the value)
P Perry: We test if hybrids offer more subjective value. AVMs are part of the solution to eliminate bias in appraisals. Appraisals should be more uniform. There should also be standardize testing of AVMs. (AVMs vary widely. Even the range price of each AVM value varies widely by over 25%. AVMs include MLS GLA which is generally larger than actual GLA)
Sherman: Diversity in appraisers and appraisals. We are supporting various minority programs to increase minorities in appraisers such as the minority in women scholarships program. We are trying to improve our diversity and understanding of the community. (Whites make up 85.4% of Appraisal Institute members. Males make up 75% of members even though the US is 50% males).
A Perry: We are doing an ashoka partnership. It's a housing development challenge with $1M prize for a valuable solution.
Bunce: There is no time for an extensive Q & A. New American Dream lending has recorded the meeting which will be available to view later. Over 500 people attended. This is an important issue we are focused on.
Bunce's screen then flashes to a photo of the black Florida couple, woman who stated they were racially discriminated against in a media article. After that a promotional video for the company played with only black people. It appears the company may be using this issue to sell mortgages. Many have been doing the same.
Mary Cummins: I wrote these notes to the best of my ability. I'll post the link to the one hour video Zoom meeting when it's available.
Below is a copy of the chat.
From Tiarra Hill to Everyone: 11:03 AM
Hello Everyone! We are excited to have your attention regarding these hot topics. My name is Tiarra Hill a native North Carolinian, mother of twin teenage boys, a Sr. Loan Consultant and a member of the New American Dream Initiative. I have been in banking and finance for almost 20 years and my passion is helping clients with their goal of homeownership.
Today our panel will discuss Black Homeownership and how it is impacted by Property Valuation and Appraisal Bias. We are taking questions during the last 10 minutes of the program, but feel free to interact in the chat with myself, Elexia Bostic or LaMonica McDuffie, Loan Originators at New American.
From Pastor Letty Butler to Everyone: 11:04 AM
Hello Everyone!
From Tiarra Hill to Everyone: 11:04 AM
Andre M. Perry is a Senior Fellow with the Brookings Metropolitan Policy Program, a scholar-in-residence at American University, and a columnist for the Hechinger Report. Perry is the author of the new book “Know Your Price: Valuing Black Lives and Property in America’s Black Cities,” which is currently available wherever books are sold. A nationally known and respected commentator on race, structural inequality, and education, Perry is a regular contributor to MSNBC and has been published by The New York Times, The Nation, The Washington Post, TheRoot.com and CNN.com. Perry has also made appearances on CNN, PBS, National Public Radio, NBC, and ABC. Perry’s research focuses on race and structural inequality, education, and economic inclusion. Perry’s recent scholarship at Brookings has analyzed Black-majority cities and institutions in America, focusing on valuable assets worthy of increased investment.
From LaMonica McDuffie to Everyone: 11:04 AM
Greetings! My name is LaMonica McDuffie. I am a Loan Consultant, a member of the New American Dream Initiative and I consistently provide a 5-star experience for all of my homebuyers. Over the last year I helped 72 families achieve their dream of homeownership.
Our discussion today will cover Property Valuation and Appraisal Bias as it pertains to Black Homeownership. We are taking questions during the last 10 minutes of the program, but feel free to interact in the chat with myself, Tiarra Hill, or Elexia Bostic.
From Me to All Panelists: 11:05 AM
Hello from Mary Cummins real estate appraiser in Los Angeles, California.
From Elexia Bostic to Everyone: 11:06 AM
Jefferson L. Sherman, MAI, AI-GRS, of Highland Heights, Ohio, is the 2021 immediate past president of the Appraisal Institute. He also will continue to serve in 2021 on the Appraisal Institute’s Executive Committee and on its policy-setting Board of Directors, in addition to serving as National Nominating Committee chair. He served as the organization’s vice president in 2018 and as president-elect in 2019.
Sherman has served nationally on the Board of Directors, Finance Committee, Nominating Committee, Education Committee, International Relations Committee and Strategic Planning Committee (2017). He has served nearly continuously on the Region V committee since 1993, including many years as its parliamentarian. He also has served in chapter roles, including twice as an Appraisal Institute chapter president in Ohio, and has worked on two successful chapter merger teams. Sherman is principal of Sherman Valuation & Review, LLC, in Willoughby Hills, Ohio. He has taught courses for the Appraisal Institute since 1992 in 10 states and in Saudi Arabia. He also has served on two course development teams and was chief reviewer for the apartment appraisal course.
From Elexia Bostic to Everyone: 11:06 AM
Sherman has been a real estate professional for 45 years, including as a broker in Colorado and then in Michigan. His practice concentrates on the eminent domain field with emphasis on litigation review. He opened his original appraisal business, Johnson and Sherman, Inc., in Willoughby, Ohio, in 1990. The firm changed to Sherman-Andrzejczyk Group, Inc. in 2000 transitioning to Sherman Valuation & Review in 2019. During his years as a Realtor, he twice served as president of the Battle Creek (Michigan) Board of Realtors and was named Realtor of the Year in 1982.
From Tiarra Hill to Everyone: 11:09 AM
Andre M. Perry is a Senior Fellow with the Brookings Metropolitan Policy Program, a scholar-in-residence at American University, and a columnist for the Hechinger Report. Perry is the author of the new book “Know Your Price: Valuing Black Lives and Property in America’s Black Cities,” which is currently available wherever books are sold. A nationally known and respected commentator on race, structural inequality, and education, Perry is a regular contributor to MSNBC and has been published by The New York Times, The Nation, The Washington Post, TheRoot.com and CNN.com. Perry has also made appearances on CNN, PBS, National Public Radio, NBC, and ABC. Perry’s research focuses on race and structural inequality, education, and economic inclusion. Perry’s recent scholarship at Brookings has analyzed Black-majority cities and institutions in America, focusing on valuable assets worthy of increased investment.
Since the COVID-19 pandemic began, Perry has documented the underlying causes for the outsized number of coronavirus-related deaths in Black communities. Perry’s Brookings research has illuminated how certain forms of social distancing historically accelerated economic and social disparities between Black people and the rest of the country. Perry also mapped racial inequities in housing, income, and health to underscore how policy discrimination makes Black Americans more vulnerable to COVID-19.
From Tiarra Hill to Everyone: 11:09 AM
A native of Pittsburgh, Pa., Perry earned his Ph.D. in education policy and leadership from the University of Maryland College Park.
From LaMonica McDuffie to Everyone: 11:12 AM
Hello Sonia! Great question we will get an answer for you!
From LaMonica McDuffie to Everyone: 11:18 AM
Pamela Perry is vice president of equitable housing in the Single-Family Client and Community Engagement division. She focuses on increasing Freddie Mac’s thought leadership and impact to eradicate disparities in homeownership and expand wealth for Black American families, while creating solutions for communities of color more broadly. She also oversees Single-Family’s strategic innovation to support the organization’s mission to break through historical barriers to realizing a more equitable housing system for Black Americans.
Prior to this role, Ms. Perry was a senior associate general counsel in Freddie Mac’s Legal division. For nine years, she partnered with colleagues across Freddie Mac, regulators and housing advocates in promoting fair lending and access to credit for minority borrowers.
Before Freddie Mac, she advised on solutions for complex transactions with firms such as J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. and the government of District of Columbia, where she served as deputy attorney general overseeing cou
From Nora Guerra to Everyone: 11:20 AM
Dr. Andre Perry's work is published in his book: Know Your Price: Valuing Black Lives and Property in America's Black Cities.
From LaMonica McDuffie to Everyone: 11:21 AM
The devaluation of assets in Black neighborhoods
The case of residential property https://www.brookings.edu/research/devaluation-of-assets-in-black-neighborhoods/
From Tony Panciera to Everyone: 11:22 AM
^Also, strong recommendation of Dr. Perry's Book: Know Your Price https://www.brookings.edu/book/know-your-price/
From LaMonica McDuffie to Everyone: 11:23 AM
Know Your Price: Valuing Black Lives and Property in America’s Black Cities https://www.brookings.edu/book/know-your-price/
From Caitlin Green to Everyone: 11:24 AM
^I second or third that. A 2021 favorite read of mine.
From Craig Gilbert to Everyone: 11:24 AM
For Dr. Perry: 1. What is the difference between Value and Price?; 2. Why don't buyers pay more in minority neighborhoods if 23% under priced? 3. Can appraisers require buyers to pay higher prices in minority neighborhoods? 4. What are your thoughts on Gentrification, where minorities complain that outsiders are running up prices in their neighborhoods and they can no longer afford to buy? 5. If appraisers over-value properties, and borrowers receive loans that exceed values, thereby reducing equity, is this a good thing for creating wealth?
From Susan Allen to Everyone: 11:30 AM
Can you please post or distribute a link to the Freddie research study Pam referenced? Thank you!
From roderick smith to Everyone: 11:31 AM
Will a copy of this recording be emailed out to attendees?
From Nora Guerra to Everyone: 11:33 AM
The Freddie Mac study that Pam just referenced is not yet published since we are finalizing our research. Once it is published it will be available on our website at Freddiemac.com
From Elexia Bostic to Everyone: 11:35 AM
1. How did you hear about this event?
From LaMonica McDuffie to Everyone: 11:36 AM
What other topics would you like to discuss pertaining to increasing Black Homeownership?
From Tiarra Hill to Everyone: 11:37 AM
Did you think the information shared today was useful?
From Astrid Taylor to Everyone: 11:39 AM
I would like to see how the credit scoring models may be biased and how mortgage lending can use alternative credit for qualification instead of relying solely on credit scores from the 3 credit bureaus.
From Patricia Benavides to Everyone: 11:40 AM
As a new Trainee, I am interested in concepts or traits that can increase the trust or relationship of homeowners, in particular, black homeowners and appraisers. In other words, where can a Trainee begin?
From Craig Gilbert to Everyone: 11:41 AM
Can the inclusion of Census Tract Numbers in appraisal reports work against borrowers in minority neighborhoods?
From Elexia Bostic to Everyone: 11:41 AM
Have you had an adverse experience with an appraisal? If so, please tell us about it.
From Rachel Meadows to Everyone: 11:42 AM
I work for Councilwoman Cherelle Parker in Philadelphia. In April, she held a hearing to examine the race gap in home appraisals and its impact on homeownership and wealth accumulation in Philadelphia. After the hearing, she has now created a local Task Force to further look at this issue. The Task Force will 1) gather data at the local level, and 2) make recommendations for the local, state, and federal levels. Are any of the panelists aware of other cities that are also looking at this issue? It would be great to connect with another city/other cities to share information/best practices.
From Patricia Benavides to Everyone: 11:48 AM
@Rachel Mead- would you be able to post a link to read more about Councilwoman Cherelle Parker's
initiative?
From angela holman to Everyone: 11:48 AM
Homes are currently overpriced despite the CMA's supporting these overpriced homes. We have a bubble.
From Craig Gilbert to Everyone: 11:48 AM
Please ask Dr. Perry to answer the questions posed to him
From Rachel Meadows to Everyone: 11:49 AM
@LaMonica - Re. this question: What other topics would you like to discuss pertaining to increasing Black Homeownership? Here are some answers: Addressing aging housing stock or housing stock that needs modernization (aka housing preservation), access to loans via private banks (Philly had to create a government program to address this issue), ensuring that heirs view the home as an asset and not a liability, tangled titles (aka estate planning), predatory lending, reverse mortgages, foreclosures, ensuring a healthy balance in neighborhoods between homeowners and renters, staving off an influx of investor-owned rental properties, assisting new homeowners with purchasing homes, and for some neighborhoods, the need for neighborhood-wide succession planning (some neighborhoods in Philly consist of primarily older homeowners who won’t be around in 10-15 years)
From Dean Zantow to Everyone: 11:49 AM
The appraisal body of knowledge addresses the social construct, as Jeff said, through the concept of Public Interest Value. Generally, the analysis of public interest value tends to be driven by social, political, and public policy goals rather than economic principles. From the 15th Edition of the Appraisal of Real Estate.
From Rachel Meadows to Everyone: 11:52 AM
@Charles Lowery - my email address is rachel.meadows@phila.gov
@Patricia Benavides - Here are some article’s re. Councilwoman Parker’s work:
https://whyy.org/articles/home-appraisals-drive-americas-racial-wealth-gap-95-of-phillys-appraisers-are-white/
From Tiarra Hill to Everyone: 11:52 AM
Did you think the information shared today was useful?
From Rachel Meadows to Everyone: 11:53 AM
https://whyy.org/articles/philly-council-moves-to-hold-hearings-on-race-gap-in-philadelphia-appraisals/
https://philly.metro.us/council-considers-racial-bias-in-home-appraisals/
From Me (Mary Cummins) to All Panelists: 11:56 AM (I also sent in the question ahead of time)
Question to Andre Perry: The data in your "Devaluation of Assets in Black Neighborhoods" report was derived from the median Zillow listing price per square foot and the American Community Survey ACS data. Both of those values come from the owner, seller of the property and not real estate appraisers. They're also not the sales price or "valuation" of the property.
At the June 20, 2019 House Finance Committee a Committee member asked the panel of real estate appraisal experts and also you if they thought real estate appraisers whom you state are mainly white discriminate against black homeowners when appraising their homes. You were the only person who raised your hand stating that appraisers discriminate against black homeowners.
What evidence do you have which supports your claim that white real estate appraisers discriminated against black homeowners and devalued their homes in your report?
From Patricia Benavides to Everyone: 11:56 AM
@ Rachel Meadows- THANK YOU for the articles!!
From LaMonica McDuffie to Everyone: 11:57 AM
We have 75 questions posed to you all from attendees and we are trying to answer the trends but will get responses to everyone.
From Andre Perry to Everyone: 11:57 AM
LaMonica McDuffie to Panelists and Attendees (2:57 PM)
We have 75 questions posed to you
From LaMonica McDuffie to Everyone: 11:57 AM
So if you don't see your answer immediately don't be alarmed!
From Nora Guerra to Everyone: 11:57 AM
Brookings-Ashoka Challenge: https://challenge.economicarchitectureproject.org
From Kermiath McClendon to Everyone: 11:58 AM
^DOPE!
From Archie Emerson to Everyone: 11:59 AM
Great Job Everyone
From Elexia Bostic to Everyone: 11:59 AM
Thank you all for attending. You can watch the replay on FB at https://www.facebook.com/newamericandreamteam
From Patricia Benavides to Everyone: 11:59 AM
Thank you for the conference- very informative!
From Andre Perry to Everyone: 11:59 AM
Thank you everyone: Stay in touch @andreperryedu
Mary Cummins of Animal Advocates is a wildlife rehabilitator licensed by the California Department of Fish and Game and the USDA. Mary Cummins is also a licensed real estate appraiser in Los Angeles, California.
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